An Interview with Julián García
Musician and Poet, mid-thirties

 

Dr. Spillman: Would you like to introduce yourself? Welcome to Xavier.

Julian: Thank you. My name is Julian Garcia. And…I’ve been living in New Orleans for the past two decades or so.  And I…am a native of La Ceiba, Honduras…that’s where I was born. I grew up in…the Bronx, lived there for eleven years. I’ve been in New Orleans since about ’78…on and off. [Laughs slightly]. And…that’s about it for now. What else would you like to know?

Spillman:   Well, I’d like to know…do you consider yourself…[changes direction] and you are a member of the Garífuna community?

Julian:  Yes. 

            Tell us…

Julian: Both of my parents are Garífuna.

Spillman: Tell us what that means to you. When you say that you are Garífuna, how would you define that particular ethnicity?

Julian: Well…culturally…I grew up…being spoken to in Garífuna. My parents…with my parents…and so even though I don’t consider myself very fluent in the language…I can understand fluently. Unfortunately…my Spanish is also very rudimentary. I can…I can converse on a basic level in both languages, but I didn’t use them enough. I came to the States when I was 4 years old…so…I guess I’m very…English. [Laughs slightly]. That’s how…that’s the best way I can express myself is through that language.

Spillman: Now you say that you lived in the Bronx and also that you have lived in New Orleans. How would you compare and contrast the two Garífuna communities?

Julian: Umm…you know…I would…for me my personal experience in the Bronx, from what I remember, I had more contact with my relatives…cousins, uncles, and aunts…in the Bronx. Here, I don’t really have as much contact with…my extended family. Or…but the experiences of say, like, social gatherings…parties, dances, or the such…It has been a contrast because…I remember attending a lot more in the Bronx…of social gatherings, parties, and so forth. Both my uncles are bandleaders, and they, you know, they had their own combos. And umm…here…in New Orleans, since I’ve been here, I’ve attended many more religious gatherings, than…social, or secular gatherings. That’s been the contrast for me. I’ve gone to some Garífuna masses. I’ve never…gone to one…in the Bronx, but here I’ve been to many. There’s a…priest…Father Lazaro, of Belize, who’s come down here and presented masses in Garífuna at Catholic Church. St. Theresa, and…unfortunately I don’t remember the name of the other church…in the Bywater area. But uhh…that’s been the contrast.

Spillman:  I know that’s there’s at least one Garífuna mass every year. Do you attend that?

Julian: Yeah, usually. I haven’t in the past year. I missed the last two.

Spillman: You mentioned religious ceremonies. Do you think the Garífuna community here is primarily Catholic? Or how do you perceive the general, pervading religious culture of the Garífunas in New Orleans?

Julian: Yeah…umm…It's…it's Africanism wrapped in…Catholic garb…That’s how I perceive all the experiences in the Caribbean with people of African descent. You know…they weren’t allowed to really openly express their African spiritual beliefs, so…you know…having to be indoctrinated into Catholicism, and adopting those…those views, or that cloak, or that venire…[laughs slightly]…you know. Africans have always…been very created in how they integrated. Just like in Cuba, or places like that, or Santería, or…those practices…those Yoruba deities are… fused with the Catholic saints, like…Santa Barbara or Ichango, or this sort of thing. I think the Garífuna do the same thing. They have certain saints and… And things I’m sure no longer have a clear name, or a…they may not know where things come from…things are just passed down, you know.

Spillman: Do you think that most of the members of the Garífuna community here who participate actively in the ‘Missa Garífuna’, and the other religious activities are conscious of the fact that a lot of what they’re doing is Afro-informed?

Julian: I don’t think so. I think in a way. I think it’s half-conscious. That’s how I see it. 

Román-

Beato: How do you explain that? Half conscious?

Julian: How do I explain? [perplexed].

Román-

Beato: Half-conscious.

Julian:  Because…it’s like they are aware they are doing something differently, you know, than what the European…or…what would be the mestizo or the people of that extraction… I’m sure on some level, some conscious…I guess I’ll say [sic] semi-conscious because…to be really conscious I think is to deliberately pursue the study of and dissect the…to really put it under the microscope. I don’t think a lot of people put that kind of time into things unless they’re academics or, you know what I mean? They just accept something.

Rousselle: Do you think there’s a contingent of…Garínagu who think that, there’re some practices of the Garínagu, or Garífuna culture are satanic?

Julian: Probably, yeah. Once again, that’s part of the indoctrination of, you know… If you’re going to make people accept Catholicism you have to make them reject…you know…their practices…[laughs mildly]…you know…that’s part of their culture…

Román-

Beato:  [pitch of voice makes question indeterminate]

Julian: I…I feel like [pause is extensive]…I mean ultimately I think any belief is fine…to me it doesn’t matter what you believe, even if it’s the worship of Satan…to me it’s all the same, it’s a belief. Whether it’s Christ or whatever. I guess intellectually, you know…I don’t what I would call myself. I guess I’m very…I’m always analyzing it, I guess I’m always questioning… but I don’t question faith…I think faith is the most Important thing…whatever you decide to believe in just believe in it…go with it…cause, you know, it’s all going to’ work the same way to me [laughs abruptly].

Spillman: We have asked several of our interviewees about the dugú, and the reaction has been consistently pretty negative, a number of these people were older than you are, but we found even a couple of the middle aged informants still have a very negative perception of the dugú. Have attended a dugú and what was your experience?

Julian:  I’ve never attended one, and it’s only…I mean I heard my…mother and sisters speak of it and…I don’t know if I’ve actually asked them whether not they’ve attended, but that’s an example right there of something that’s steeped in African tradition that…I guess I'm thinking about what you just said it very interesting…I guess I'm in a generation…I’m part of that lost generation where I could’ve been totally cut off from my culture but…I…constantly pursued it. You know? At some point…like I was telling Ms. Rousselle…about five years ago I decided to consciously pursue it. I think it because I’m an artist and I felt that if was going to produce an art, the first thing I wanted to produce was going to be about this culture. So I’ve don’t that…I’ve accomplished that goal…it’s still a work in progress…but I’ve realized that goal…I’ve produced something that’s physical and that’s…been …being recognized. Like I said,[1] I just received the Louisiana Division of the Arts artist fellowship for 2003-2004, and it’s…a 5000 dollar cash prize. And so that’s given me encouragement, to pursue this further.

Rousselle: What was the catalyst or what motivated you to become more conscious of your culture?

Julian:  Several things. One thing is because I started doing more reading. I think I can… probably trace it back to Xavier University.

Rousselle: Really?

Julian: Well, indirectly. Because…I came to hear… a talk by…Ferris Thompson…any way his last name is Thompson. And Mr. Thompson wrote a book called Flash of the Spirit, which traces through art history Africanisms as they were translated to the Caribbean into the new world. Things like dugú would be in there. Sand drawings…the bottle tress that are found in the south he was able to pin point where these things came from.  How he could connect this bottle tree to what happened in Africa or that Africanisms or that philosophy or world view. So…doing that, reading that book probably led me to try to discover what it is in the Garínagu culture, how I can trace these things back. [Conversation pitch lowers to a murmur]

Spillman: You refer to yourself as a member of the lost generation, what’s the lost generation?

Julian: Well I guess I referring to…an article I once read in the Times-Picayune. It talked about how the Garífuna were in danger of,… a disappearing or vanishing culture. I didn’t keep that article for whatever reason. They talked about how many of the younger generation weren’t speaking the language…this is a culture that I think assimilates very…there’s not enough…of a unifying theme. Once again dugú would be a unifying thing but the people you spoke with rejected this kind of thing. So they’re rejecting the very things that would unify them.

Rousselle:  Why do you think that they’re rejecting the dugú?

Julian: Because…such things as vudu…or voodoo…it’s ignorance, it’s misunderstanding, it’s cultural…I mean growing up black or African in this world, in this country, you realize…if there’s…there’s a system that plays on basic human nature, survival instinct…you know, if you say it’s better…if you’re closer to white then you have more advantages, and as a human being you don’t want to be disadvantaged so you want take on as many advantages as possible. Whether it’s rejecting…africanisms in order to be more European, then if that’s what it’s going to take, that’s what it’s going to take… my child needs to be more European to make it in this world, then I’m going to give them more European views ‘cause the African views aren’t going to go very far in this culture. So it’s not going to benefit them. So it’s all about survival I think, basic human…instinct, and it’s just unfortunate.

Rousselle:  Because the way that the people…the informants we’ve been interviewing explain the rejection of dugú is that it’s not of god.

Julian:  Yeah, but, yeah exactly. That’s how they would say it.

Rousselle: That’s how they would say it, but you’re talking about other things going on beneath that, that maybe they’re not even conscious of.

Julian:  right, right. They’re not conscious that…they’ve been brainwashed. I mean a brainwashed person doesn’t know that they’ve been brainwashed [giggles encompass the room].

Román-

Beato:  Have you met other Garínagu, or Garífuna, who are more or less…have an idea to this type of religious, social, [word is indeterminate], similar to yours?

Julian: Here?

Román-

Beato: Yeah?

Julian: No. You know, I haven’t had enough conversation with…with…except with Aurora…Aurora Knox.

Román-

Beato: Who’s this?

Julian She’s a…she was one of the panelists on the, um…Garífuna panel that I did…

Rousselle: At Jazz Fest?

Julian: Yeah, Jazz Fest…two years ago. And, um, I’ve known her for years. We’re not in constant contact. I don’t call her all the time, anymore. We were at a certain point, you know, I did…I did befriend her and we talked, so I know enough about her views, that they’re closest to mine. And she’s very open. Once again, a very interesting thing, is that she’s in a lot of ways outside of the community because of her views and because of her independent nature, independent thinking, I think…and she’s a lot older than I am. So I can imagine that her open and progressive views wouldn’t bee understood by her peers. Like the people who reject the dugú.

Rousselle: So do you feel that a majority Garínagu community here rejects the dugú in a very staunchly Catholic..?

Julian: I don’t know enough about a lot of the individuals. but I would imagine.

Rousselle: You say that Aurora Knox, she is sort of outside the community. How do other Garínagu treat her? Is she ostracized in anyway?

Julian: From what I get from her that’s what it seems.

Rousselle: Because maybe she’s outspoken?

Julian: Probably because she just sees things differently.

Rousselle: Because you seem to see things differently. So I was wondering if, are you outspoken about your beliefs?

Julian: Yeah. [Voice pitch lowers]. When people ask for my opinion I give it to them.

Rousselle: And how is that opinion received?

Julian:  Um, usually it’s, you know, usually it’s pretty, I shock…I shock ‘em, a lot of people. Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with Dana…should I call her a receptionist?

Spillman:  Secretary.

Rousselle: Or administrative assistant.  She got promoted.

Julian: [Laughs slightly]. You know it’s like we got into a conversation about…wealth, and capitalism, and Catholicism. I told her that I spent a year reading the Bible and what I came away with the Bible is that…the roots of capitalism are in the Bible…it starts to talk about money and ends talking about money [participants laugh]. And I gave her my view that, money was the most Important thing. And like most people that are indoctrinated into Christianity, they don’t see that, they don’t see…the roots of…they might not make the connection. And I understand that most people probably don’t make the connection. But I…that’s what I came away with it so she was kind of shocked about it.

Rousselle: She probably agreed though. [Incoherent phrase is murmured]

Julian: We were talking about Martin Luther and the Reformation, and the you know how he saw the selling of indulgences and how the Catholic Church, umm…this is a Catholic institution isn’t it [laughs slightly].

Rousselle: It’s ok, there’s no…[indeterminate sentence].

Spillman: If these walls could talk, we’d all be burnt at the stake.

Julian: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting cause, it’s…But you learn from that, you know cause…it.. I come away with it half,… what’s the word…some touch of [indeterminate]? Is that the word? I don’t know what word I’m looking for. It’s, it’s, it’s, more like the inside I get, it’s like ‘oh so that’s how it works’ so you know I guess it goes back to that saying when in Rome do as the Romans do. Ok. I guess that goes back to the whole survival thing and rejecting dugú. If you’re somewhere where the practice of dugú doesn’t seem beneficial you’re going to reject it and adopt whatever the prevailing culture is practicing in order to survive.

Spillman: Do you consider your viewpoints as Afrocentric?

Julian: Yes.

Spillman: Do you find that your Afrocentric point of view is the problem when you try to communicate with other members of the Garífuna community?

Julian: Um…[long pause] that’s hard to say. Umm….hmm…that’s a good question cause I haven’t really had that much of an extensive conversation with…people in the community. But umm…I guess I’m playing the scenario in my head and…that would probably be a factor. Yeah.

Spillman: To what do you attribute the fact that there are people who don’t accept your Afrocentric views?

Julian: Umm…well…I think it’s…I attribute it to…umm…a very strong…umm…a system of disassociation is the best word. You know…it’s a…once again disassociating in order…disassociating because you feel there’s more of an advantage to disassociate.

Rousselle: When we asked one of the informants, umm, what she thought were the negative aspects of the United States, and of course I don’t [to rapid to distinguish], because obviously we look like people who are typically of the United States, maybe she didn’t want to tell us any negative aspects, but, umm, what are some negative aspects of the United States, or negative and positive? She had a lot of positive things to say, but no negative so I’d be interested in what positive and negative aspects, and why you’re in the united states and why you’re not going back to Honduras, or maybe you have intentions to go back to Honduras, but what are some of the positive and negative things you see about living here?

Julian: I think that…umm…the positive thing about living in the states, to me, I am…technically I’m not American but… In spirit I am… because the ideal of America…this is the most powerful country on the planet so…that’s positive. Being…being associated with the most powerful force on the planet has its advantages. And umm…so…I guess I would say…it’s simply that…it’s having all these opportunities…to grow and to…to study and to interact with people. I don’t think I would’ve had much of that in Honduras.  Maybe in Belize. From what I understand I’ve met some Belizians, some Garífuna from Belize, and they’re more Afrocentric. They’re more of the people I would be talking to. But I mean probably not now, cause there’s…there’s definite movement. The person who…who…I got a call from a Luis Reyes and…from Los Angeles… and he’s part of an organization called Garínagu empowerment movement and he’s Belizean and…I’m…I guess I’m trying to say that things are changing, the new generation I can see more Afrocentricity. And even though they should understand that being Garínagu means being both African and Indian, that’s what sets us apart, I think more than anything, is that the language that we speak is derived from Arawak, Carib languages, so and a lot of the practices and cuisine or whatever has those influences. But umm I don’t know being in America I guess I’m able to see the world in a bigger…it’s like I’m sitting on top of the mountain and I can look down at the rest of the planet. Where I guess if I were in Honduras I would be, you know, in the midst of the forest and it would be harder to see the rest of the world.

Román-

Beato:  Do you think that might be part of what you call lost, that you are…you talk about you are part of the lost words, or lost cultural generation, so when you are…on top of the mountain there seeing down, when you see down is what you miss?       

Julian: So the process I’ve gone through in the past five years in trying to regain what I think I’ve missed.

Román-

Beato: What do you know about that in Honduras?

Julian: Umm.   I’ve gotten most of my information a gentleman…I forgot his name…Milton Wheaty…he lived here for a little and then moved back to New York and he showed me videotapes. He was a photographer. He documented a lot about the culture, the dugú houses, the temples, and everyday life. He had a beautiful documentation of life in Honduras through photographs. Unfortunately, I wish he was here. 

Román-

Beato:  Do you have contact with that person?

Julian: I can find him. And umm…and he showed me videos of like student protests and marches that are going on and that’s where I saw all these younger people starting to really become more conscious. So things, you know…my generation’s…we’re trying to figure out what we’re going to do, what kind of jobs are we going to get. But it seems that now the kids in Honduras are more empowered.

Spillman: Do you think that’s going to happen here, among the young Garínagu here?

Julian: I don’t know. I’ve only…I’ve had contact with one younger generation…. and umm…it didn’t seem to me that…these are still teenagers, not thinking about very much. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know too many of them.

Román-

Beato: Do you think if we [meet], or get in contact with, we might meet other marginalized Garífuna people?

Julian: Yeah, and you may be able to…to meet more…progressive thinking younger generation people…I would assume…you know…who would associate with their parents.

Spillman: What we want to do with the project is to present a very broad perspective and having only older women who are very orthodox Catholic, although they’re very interesting, and I would certainly take nothing away from the interviews that we’ve had, it’s better to have more perspectives. It’s better to hear that, not to give the impression that this is the community. How do you distinguish between the terms Garínagu and Garífuna?

Julian: Well, I distinguish it by Garífuna being the language, the term used for the language that’s spoken. Garínagu would be the people because that’s how the people define themselves, or, you know, we say ‘we are Garínagu’.

Spillman: Is that both singular and plural so one individual would say ‘I am a Garínagu’?

Julian:  (Answers in the affirmative. Garínagu naguya. [Again answers in the affirmative].

Rousselle: So back to the United States, what are the negative things?

Julian: I didn’t talk about the negative things. Well you know it comes with power. When you have power you can be arrogant. So it’s really that basic thing. Power can be a very good thing and it can be a bad thing for those that don’t have power. You can be the 800-pound gorilla, you know, which is a great thing if you’re the 800-pound gorilla. If you’re the nine-pound weakling in the room with the 800-pound gorilla it’s not a very good thing. Once again it’s about getting an advantage. I guess my worldview has been shaped by that power, and how power is used and my observations. And how that relates to Afrocentricity and all of that and history …and the influence of Christianity. I don’t know too much about the Muslim world, I know that’s the other great power. And of course right now we’re seeing the clash between the two great titans. But umm…I would guess that would be the negative thing.

Rousselle: In your day to day individual existence do you face what you would consider negative things because you’re living in the united states and you are apart of the 13, 14 percent, not in this area, but in the united states, as a person of African descent have you experienced racism?

Julian:  Yeah, umm…racism is a funny word to me, you know, because I really don’t understand what it means. I don’t really understand it because if we’re going to talk about race, I guess I’m going to get philosophical here, the word race doesn’t really mean anything, there’s only one race, it’s the human race. An African and an Eskimo can get together and have a baby. So there’s only one race…but once again it’s about ignorance, it’s about not understanding, and that’s what it’s really all about.  Of course I’ve experienced what people would call racism, but I guess I don’t call it racism, I just call it ignorance. People are conditioned and they’ll accept something. And I guess if there’s anything negative about the United States that would be it. Because of the arrogance that comes with power, that…you know it’s like…a lot of Americans don’t know where Honduras is…they don’t even know where Mexico is probably [bursts of laughter and slight whisper]. Yeah it’s like, I don’t know…it’s like this skit on Jay Leno where he asked an American on the street [slight disruption], he’s like where’s Afghanistan?

Román-

Beato: [Incoherent question].

Julian: Repeat that. I’m not quite sure what you’re asking me.

Román-

Beato:  You were saying that race is something that you didn’t understand sometimes.

Julian: right.

Román-

Beato: And you find the United States people who talk about race do not know where Honduras is or Mexico is or there is a lack of understanding what they’re talking about?

Julian: Right.      

Román-

Beato: So then I ask you now if you find the same thing with regard to ethnicity?

Julian: You mean?

Román-

Beato: Lack of knowledge.

Julian: Does that depend on their ethnicity? Is there a correlation of their lack of knowledge and their ethnicity?

Román-

Beato:  Or they know, you find that they know what they are talking about when they say ethnicity, different shades of people?

Julian: What do you mean, the typical American?

Spillman: [nods head and motions to answer in the affirmative].

Rousselle: How would you differentiate ethnicity and race?

Julian: Umm…to me ethnicity is really the word to use, not race. Because once again race doesn’t really exist in my mind. It doesn’t mean anything. But ethnicity is very important. Once again ethnicity to me is the indoctrination; the cultural views that…that are pounded into you, into your brain, from infancy. The language, the…whatever, practices, beliefs. That’s what makes you that ethnic…like you know I can’t relate to someone from Senegal. Even though we might look alike. And they’re not going to look at me as African; they know I wasn’t born in Africa. And, a so-called African American, you know, is worlds away from someone in Ghana. They can’t really relate to each other. So it’s about ethnicity. It’s culture and ethnicity are most powerful.

Spillman: In interviewing some of the Afro-Louisianians from the French speaking communities from southwest Louisiana, I’ve heard from a number of them that they felt they experienced double discrimination. That they were discriminated against by people of European descent because they were black and they were discriminated against by people of African descent because they were too French. Do you find anything comparable to that in the experiences of yours or in may of the experiences of other Garífuna?

Julian:  I would say…I guess growing up, now that I think of it, I never really felt part of the African American groups and I was not necessarily part of the Hispanic group either. You know? I walk into a room and…unless I start speaking Spanish or Garífuna, most people aren’t going to distinguish me from any other African American. And if I’m among…I’ve been in situations where…like I remember being in Finland a couple years ago, and there was this group from Cuba and my band mates had never heard me speak Spanish, and I started conversing with these Cubans in Spanish and they were like, ‘what is he doing’. I mean they always knew there was something different about me, I have a Spanish last name, Garcia, and you know…but it was a different experience for them hearing me speak Spanish and that made me even more strange.

Rousselle: How do you feel about the term ‘Afro-Hispanic’?

Julian: It’s a term. You know it’s a distinguishing term I guess. It makes…it easy for people to talk about something, define it. I…you know when I fill out a form or a census…paper whatever. The categories…I used to fill out…what was it?…what were the terms? I think Hispanic,…I don’t know if there was any such thing as a black non-Hispanic, but anyway. I would always pick the thing…I would never check off African American. I would always lean toward checking off Hispanic, whatever that other ‘slash’ thing was. You know. Because I felt, you know? I didn’t feel completely American. It’s always weird for me.

Román-

Beato:  You said twice…now you say that…I’m sorry to pick your words out but I’m not attacking you at all, I’m trying to understand. Because you are really [incoherent phrase]. I think that we are learning from you. So questions that I might perceive from…please perceive them as a way to enhance the sympathy. So in that context, you’re saying that you are not the typical American though you got here when you were four and a half years old? And now you insist on ‘I am not the typical American’ and so forth. We were asking you assume ethnicity and race and so forth so I assume that when you say that you are talking about ethnicity, people are American or not American. Umm…so with this clarification my question is now is are you closer to Afro-Hispanic, Afro-Caribbean than Afro-American, within the context of ethnicity?

Julian: The only way I could answer that is that I’m all of those things. Cause I cant…be in one of those things. I can’t eloquate[2] why at this point but I guess intellectually I have to be in all of those places. Cause I’ve experienced all of those. It depends…it depended on who…who I was interacting with, what I am the most. I mean if I’m interacting with a…Euro American I become Afro-American, you know…until they get to know me a little better and then I...the more they get to know about me the more complex things get. Obviously, that’s how…that’s how it is when…people meet.

Román-

Beato: So when she said to you, Dr. Spillman, something about discrimination or double discrimination and so forth and you so clearly answered the question, now I would like to go back and get to it if you don’t mind.

Julian: No I don’t mind [speaking softer than before].

Román-

Beato: Umm…some people have said that discrimination brings up something related to [indeterminate]. And victimize…the victim’s might also might feel low…debated by discriminating cultural people. Umm…on the other hand some people have said that everybody has a stereotype. The things is not to have them out, at least if one does not want to get into those problems. Do you feel the discriminating, the discrimination that you have perceived or felt in the United States…it stimulates…within you, this same attitude for discriminating other too?

Julian: Do I…you’re talking about do I discriminate against others?

Román-

Beato: [Answers with an affirmative gesture].

Julian:  Probably, yes. To some degree. I would admit that I probably do. Id like to talk about the victimization, or victim’s subject, and that is I can look back and know that I've experienced the victim’s…the victim’s…posture, or profile, experience. And I’ve grown out of that, to not think in those terms anymore. The term racism, it doesn’t work in my vocabulary anymore. Neither does victims or victims of discrimination, because… that’s something that’s not going to go away. So how do you deal with it and I prefer to deal with it by, by once again doing what the Romans do. Once again the positive thing about America is that the idea of capitalism is practiced here and I see wealth and power as a…an equalizing thing. So instead of pursuing victimization or relief from victimization I prefer to pursue wealth and power and empowerment. So…I mean…it used to be corny for me, the whole Horatio Alger thing and…and bootstraps…and…what are these Republicans talking about. But…now I…feel like…it’s all in the power of the individual. Your passion and pursuit of empowerment and wealth. It’s shifted focus. If you keep focusing on victimization and discrimination then that’s all you’re going to see. What would happen if you started focusing on empowerment and…liberation and you know? I guess I have a problem with people that are…protest…in those ways. Where they end up burning buildings down and bombing places. Because…I mean obviously it’s destructive and it doesn’t do very much to change the situation. The only thing you can do as an individual is just empower yourself. That’s why I see an advantage in this country that, to me, it seem like you have an opportunity to do that here.

Román-

Beato: So my question is, I don’t want to get out of the Garífuna stuff [indeterminate phrase] but the question of discrimination and discriminating goes into the dynamic of the Garífuna who are religious, Catholic…and those, like you, or Aurora, who have other attitudes and so forth, and how then this type of person are discriminated against, the victim, or the victims, will feel discriminated or not discriminated is within that context. Not the political stuff that we already know, black and white and so forth. So how do you classify then the dynamic in the United States within that dynamic of Catholicized, empowered Garífuna, Garínagu, and those who are not in power like you or Aurora and so forth?

Julian: Well, I…in this country you’re  just…you’re either the ruling class, the middle class or the poor. I’ve never met a Garínagu who’s a millionaire yet [laughs slightly]. But I mean I would love to. If there isn’t or…if there are very few…I want to be one of those very few. That’s my intention. I’ve pursed my past twenty years as being an artist…

Rousselle: So would you say that most Garífuna are middle class?

Julian: No. Most of the ones that I know…

Rousselle: Are lower middle class?

Julian:  Yeah, I would say lower…lower middle class. And…I never considered my family…I always considered my family to be poor.

Román-

Beato: [indeterminate phrase]

Julian:  Huh?

Román-

Beato: Garífuna?

Julian: My particular family, my immediate family. To me I come from a poor background.  And…think the only…I guess my other siblings are living lower middle class lifestyles. But umm…that’s gong to be part of the fabric in the discrimination. You know that if you’re in that rung of the ladder then it comes with it. Those oppressions, those situations where you’re going to be discriminated against.

Rousselle: So you feel your escape from that is to become as affluent as you can?

Julian: [Answers in the affirmative with a grunt]

Rousselle: So you feel as if, to some point, that it’s the lesser of the evils to embrace that system?

Julian:  [Answers in the affirmative with a grunt]

Rousselle: And what do you think the turning point was? What do you think the catalyst was for you to begin to think that way?

Julian:  Umm…[long pause] I don’t know. I went to an art school here, the New Orleans Center for Creative Arts, and my band mates…most…a lot of my band mates are at this point at the top of the ladder…in the…the music industry in terms of jazz. I was trained as a jazz musician and my classmates were people like Terrance Blanchard, who…a world renowned trumpet player, composer, he’s composed film scores for Spike Lee and he’s actually a really good friend of mine in high school, and we still talk. And Wynton Marsalis and Branford Marsalis were also two classes ahead of me, but we all studied you know at the same place. And…there was a point where they were all trying to take me with them…but there was…there’s a very strong thing telling me that I had so much work to do. Number one I didn’t feel that comfortable at my level of artistry that they seemed…they seemed to have more confidence in me than I did. But…part of the experience I had at that high school, at that art school, is that I was trying to find an identity. I couldn’t identify with them on a lot of levels…I couldn’t identify with being a jazz musician. It’s very strange…I feel American, like Americanized, but at the same time…I’m…I guess I used to describe myself as a man without a country. Because once again it’s about fitting in those different groups…and I fit in all of them in some way but none of them at the same time. And so all of that…all of those things, those dynamics came into play during my time at NOCCA.   And… I remember Ellis…we played…we started playing something with the Latin group and he told me that to take a solo and he turned and said ‘See that’s where he’s at; that’s his thing’. and I had never studied Latin music it was just something that was in me. That phrasing. The way [indeterminate word] players phrase that’s the way I played that music. they always looked at me…number one I grew up in New York and number two I had this last name ‘Garcia’, so it was always interesting for me. So I spent all that time, that was probably the turning point, and when I saw them become millionaires. Branford, we all know Branford was on Jay Leno, band director, and Wynton has the Lincoln center jazz orchestra. So these are the gentlemen that I used to sit next to in class and we used to crack jokes and we used to practice together and I played their recital and all that. But you know I saw them go out their into the world and conquer this territory. And even though once again, even though they felt like I was one of them I didn’t feel that way. There was something that I need to do. And that thing I think I realize now was to find my identity. I think exploring being a Garínagu was a big part of that thing…I wasn’t able to articulate who I was until very recently.

Spillman: Where do you want to go with your artistry now? Where do you want to go with your music?

Julian: Well, right…right now my project, which is called the Garínagu story, is a 30-minute, is a half hour performance piece, that’s a music suite, it’s set up as a music suite, with narrative. I talk about the Garínagu, the Garífuna story, from the year 1311 to the present. So I talk about what I, from what I’ve studied and read, is my story, the story of the Garínagu. And… I just plan on…taking that…producing a product…a CD or…DVD, CD-ROM that can be put on the market for young Garínagu children to see as an animation. I really plan on this music to be part of a soundtrack to an animation. An animated story about the Garínagu, just like a Disney film except for Garínagu kids to understand the culture.

Spillman: Thank you very much. We certainly appreciate it. And we look forward to seeing you again.